A 664 is REAL low for NO derogs!

I realize that this is an old post.

However, I have a question about Equifax, and a personal situation that recently happened.

First, let me explain that I am a Mortgage Loan Officer. Due to a messy divorce, we do all of our credit under my current husband....... whos credit is very good (never any derogs......... just not a real long history as he paid cash for everything till 5 years ago).

Anyway, we were buying a house. I had pulled his Equifax on 8/20/03, and his score was 692. When the investor pulled it on 9/11/03, his score was 664. The difference was the 1 inquiry from the new investor. The actual revolving, and installment debt had actually gone down about $1500. I had both copies (I then personally pulled it again on the 11th to verify......... paying the $12.95). Absolutally everything was EXACTLY the same, with the exception of the 1 inquiry. This made a total of 3 inquirees for the year, with the other 2 being Compass Bank to open a new checking account (we moved to another state), and APS to get our electricity turned on.

I went around and around with Equifax about this. They kept saying that something had to have changed.......... we closed an account......... we added an account.......... something. I told them that they were EXACTLY the same, and that I had never seen 1 inquiry lower the score by that much. After talking to about 15 people, the last guy said he would submit it to his FICO dept for review. Of course nothing came of it.

This caused us to lose our house. Equifax went from being the middle score to being the low.......... making the low score our new middle.......... and putting us 1 point out of the program we needed ( a NODOC due to change of careers). Needless to say, we were, and still are, less than pleased.

On a similar note, I keep track of my husbands credit very closely. We recently paid off an auto loan that we had for 26 months. We paid off $20K (original loan was $30K)......... thus our overall debt was reduced by $20K. The score went up 1 point. If we charge $2000 on CC's, the score will go down by 20 points. This is the most lame thing I have ever seen in my life. They don't care if you pay your bills on time......... they don't care if you pay off installment debt........... the only thing they care about is your revolving credit/limit ratio.

Sorry so long.............. I just needed to vent. I don't know if this information can help anyone here. I do have both reports.

"I had pulled his Equifax on 8/20/03, and his score was 692. When the investor pulled it on 9/11/03, his score was 664."

I'm not quite clear, YOU pulled the repor as the broker, right?

If the inquiry was coded properly as mortgage inquiry, it was IGNORED on 9/11. Please read Credit Scoring Basics (http://creditforum.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1248) for more info.

Equifax 692 - 5 years history, no derogs, 2 inquiries.

After 1 inquiry, 664.

Doesn't make much sense, and I'd say a 664 is almost impossible for that scenario.

"(I then personally pulled it again on the 11th to verify......... paying the $12.95). Absolutally everything was EXACTLY the same, with the exception of the 1 inquiry."

I'm not quite clear, WHAT was the same? You ran it before the investor and the score was 692?

You are probably aware that there are various software versions, find out what your investor used, it may have been the new and improved (lower) Next Gen.

I just can't see why your husband's credit was only 692 with 5 year history and no derogs. Should be more like mid 700s.

"I went around and around with Equifax about this. They kept saying that something had to have changed.......... we closed an account......... we added an account.......... something. I told them that they were EXACTLY the same, and that I had never seen 1 inquiry lower the score by that much. After talking to about 15 people, the last guy said he would submit it to his FICO dept for review. Of course nothing came of it."

I hope you learned that you're really wasting your time TALKING!

But I don't know what you mean by "nothing came of it." Did you fax the reports to Fair Isaac? How did they respond?

"This made a total of 3 inquirees for the year, with the other 2 being Compass Bank to open a new checking account (we moved to another state), and APS to get our electricity turned on."

Please read the Fair Isaac part of my complaint at http://forum.creditcourt.com/discus/messages/803/3097.html

"This caused us to lose our house. Equifax went from being the middle score to being the low.......... making the low score our new middle.......... and putting us 1 point out of the program we needed ( a NODOC due to change of careers). Needless to say, we were, and still are, less than pleased."

I haven't seen the credit reports, but based on your posting, you have an OUTSTANDING case!

Sue, people, sue!!!

I have CreditExpert (yes I know the scores are not good, however I just use it to keep track of the accounts since I can access it everyday).

On 8/20 I pulled the Equifax as a private individual using myfico.com. I paid the $12.95 for it. On 9/11 the investor pulled the tri-merged. I was informed that we no longer qualified for the program as the middle score was now 679 (what used to be the low score (TU)), and what was our middle score (the 692 from Equifax) was now our low score. Amazingly Experian was actually the high score (with a 705). I then paid another $12.95 to pull Equifax to verify what they had told me. Just as they said, the score was now 664.

I printed both reports, and compared them item for item. With the exception of a few creditors reporting for Sept, and a slight lowering of overall debt (by about $1400 combined installment and revolving), everything was exactly the same............ except for that one inquiry. The same amount of accounts in good standing (18), the same amount of negative accounts (0).

I called Equifax, but of course, since it was my husbands report, they would not talk to me about it. I asked if he called and gave me permission, would I be able to......... that guy said yes. My husband called, and was informed that no, I would not be able to talk on the account, unless he was standing next to me. He then tried to explain the problem, but got nowhere, as he is not versed in credit. He called back multiple times, but was told that 1 inquiry could lower his score by up to 35 points. I then had him ask why an inquiry to open a checking account, and to turn on electricity adversely affected his score. They told him, that is the way it is. We then called back when he was with me. After argueing with the brain dead person on the line for a while (he talked to me like I'm an idiot), we once again got nowhere. All I wanted was to have the score looked at, and recalculated. Finally, the last guy said it didn't sound right, and he would forward it to his FICO dept. He said I could expect a call from them within 24 hours. I never received a call, and another rep told me they don't call.

At the time, 2 of the revolving accounts did not report paid off (which I had done).

The reason for the low score was probably the purchase of a new car in March, and some furniture. We needed the vehicle for the baby (our first), as I wanted something safe for him. We had left most of our furniture with our old house.

The new credit lowered the score by about 11 points. However, until recently, his score has never really been above 700. His revolving usage had to fall to under 20% before that happened.

In the past we got maxed out on CC's due to business problems. 9/11 really killed my husbands business, and we had to use those to survive. With perfect credit (as in never any derogs, collections, or anything), but a very high usage of revolving, his score at that time was 611.

My Mother had a BK 2 years ago. She had me pull her credit........ her middle score was 655. It's nice to know that if you pay your bills, but use CC's that you are scum of the earth............. but if you have a BK (not that it was her fault, my stepfather died and left her no money), you are a wonderful person.

Anyway, if you have any other questions, feel free to ask. Sorry it was so long. I just wanted you to understand exactly what transpired.

When I finally get the courage to look at my credit, I will probably have alot of questions to ask.............. about how to go about cleaning it up.

Thank you for reading. It gets so frustrating that I can get my clients a house.......... and couldn't even get us one. We ended up in a much less expensive house on an owner carry. We had to have a place to live. Oh well, we will live on the cheap here for a while. :)

It's too late for you to do anything, but the purpose of this forum is to show people how to get things done.

1) NEVER waste your time on following the bureau scores.

Snake oil scores: CreditXpert and bureau scores (http://forum.creditcourt.com/cgi-bin/discus/discus.pl)

2) USE the time you saved by not looking at the bureau scores to read the detailed explanations for the score factors and INCREASE your scores.

3) I'm only posting this because you didn't write who you work for, but NEVER apply for a scored loan with a broker who has nobody in the office with the slightest clue about credit scores.

So, next time you need a loan, find a better broker. I know that hurts, with you being the loan agent, but this is as pathetic as it goes.

99.9% that I would have had your husband's scores above 680 in just a few days.

4) Don't talk to Equifax or any bureau about your FICO scores.

Do you call Walmart to discuss your Kmart purchase?

You need to fax your reports to FAIR ISSAC to find out why a score changed.

However, you wrote:

"At the time, 2 of the revolving accounts did not report paid off (which I had done). "

So why didn't you have the balances updated with the bureaus through an expedited dispute?

See The smoking gun - TU reports as GOOD account but gives lates to Fair Isaac (http://creditforum.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1782)

"TU deleted that undisclosed late payment today, FICO Empirica went from 657 to 672"

Your problem appears so simple! You call Equifax, tell them that the balance was paid down, they call the creditors, a few days later you have the new balance, you check the score yourself, then tell the investor to run it.

What am I missing?

One more thing, doesn't your broker offer rescoring services? If not, you ought to look into finding a better office.

5) Regarding the lower score:

"He called back multiple times, but was told that 1 inquiry could lower his score by up to 35 points. I then had him ask why an inquiry to open a checking account, and to turn on electricity adversely affected his score."

So you're saying now that the electricity inquiry was AFTER the 8/20 692 score? Or what am I missing?

The investor inquiry MUST have been IGNORED by FICO scores if it was coded as real estate inquiry.

So WHY did the score go down?

01LightningGal, it seems like you're not very concerned with the issue since you now moved. But for the other readers, if you can follow this along, save yourself a lot of headaches and subscribe to http://creditfactors.com/

CreditFactors is NOT idiotproof. You do have to READ and buy your FICO scores and analyze the score factors. But I posted samples and a lot of reference material, and I can also answer specific questions to help you along.

Christine, I didn't post the whole story to be talked down to, or treated like an idiot.

Please read your post.

I am a very good loan officer, however I was out of the business for 4 years............ our loan was the first one I did when I got back into it. The FICO system had not been out very long when I moved.......... and many lenders were still using makes sense lending.

We had very limited avenues due to the NODOC status, and 95%LTV. There were very few investors available for that program. I now know more due to your site, however I stumbled upon it. We are not born with this knowledge, and unfortunately, neither the wholesale lenders nor the credit reporting agencies tell you these things. Also, understand that no mortgage brokers teach you anything......... you have to learn by osmosis.

I researched these loans carefully, and thought I had my ducks in a row (yes I did have the REAL scores before I did this, and no, that inquiry did not show up). At the time, I did not know I could dispute a trade line before they even did their monthly posting. Now I do. Thank you for that information.

BTW, all of the investors that I deal with use the middle score on a tri-merged. It is in all of their underwriting instructions (which I also read when able). None of them specify the Equifax score only.

Finally, I do appreciate the time you take on this board, and all of the information that you supply. I have been reading like a madman to try to absorb as much as I can for the future........ and to help my clients better. Like I said, I just stumbled upon this site a couple of days ago.

I apologize if I wasted your time.

Look, don't take this personal - I specifically wrote for "other readers."

I think that I owe it to the other readers to let them know that they better go with a broker who knows about scores and at least does rescoring. Do a search for "rescoring" here and on Google.

YOUR mortgage credit report provider should be able to rescore and fix with the bureaus whatever needs to get done PRIOR to the investor running the score. It costs a few buck, but if you KNOW what's wrong, like a balance, this is real easy. Although it's of course cheaper if you do it yourself.

There's a difference betweent a loan agent and a broker who runs an office. I'd never expect every agent to know a lot about scores, but *somebody* in the office should!

"Also, understand that no mortgage brokers teach you anything......... you have to learn by osmosis."

I was a California mortage and real estate broker until FICO scores contributed greatly to my inablility to make a living - back in the mid 90s.

I KNOW that nobody teaches you about scores. Why do you think I publish my web sites and filed my law suit?

I took it upon myself to research scores, publish and SHARE what I learn.

You didn't have to lose that house, because the scores should have been much higher.

"BTW, all of the investors that I deal with use the middle score on a tri-merged. It is in all of their underwriting instructions (which I also read when able). None of them specify the Equifax score only."

ALL of your husband's scores should have been at least close to the Experian 705.

"(yes I did have the REAL scores before I did this, and no, that inquiry did not show up)."

Now I'm really lost. If the inquiriy didn't show up, why are we talking about the inquiries?

What changed the score?

I pulled a tri-merged for the file. This was in August. I have to have a tri-merged in every file. The investor then pulled their own on 9/11. There used to be a time when they used the bureau that you pulled (when I did this before). However, in the interim, my understanding is that there has been alot of credit fraud. Thus, they pull it again, and use their score (it used to be that even if the investor pulled it, they would use the higher score
as long as the information had not changed).

BTW, the inquiry for electricity was from 3/03, and the one for the checking account was from 6/03.

Like I said, the one I pulled did not show. Why I don't know, as they all show on Experian.

You think you know how this works, from what you are told, and experienced. Then something happens to make you realize you don't know much. I am just learning about the rescoring also. I am sure that our credit service offers it. However, again, it was not something I was aware of till a few days ago. The offices that I worked at years ago never mentioned anything like it.

Unfortunately, our office is a large one (I work out of my home to be with my 20 month old)........ so it would appear that information like this got lost in the shuffle.

See, I am learning more all the time. :)

Oh, no offense taken........... it is a touchy subject for me, so I guess I got a bit defensive. On the up side, if we would have purchased the other house.......... we would have had to wait about 10 years before we would be able to build the log home that we ultimately want. Since the house we now have was less than half the price, we should be able to build alot sooner.

We are not unhappy where we are at all. I just felt like I had failed for not making the other house work. BTW, I did throw my loan out to other officers also, to see if someone could make it work (at other companies even). Noone had your information either.

Pretty sad when you think about it.

01LightningGal, these days things change so fast, it's hard to keep up. And that's why I do need to offer a word of caution when you read here: Not only do things change, but I also learn something new every few hours.

There's no way that I could constantly update these thousands of postings! And that's why I put the reference forum at CreditFactors. I'm still posting new discovery and news here, but my day has only 24 hours.

A great place to find recent and relevant links is the blog, check the right column for the "Credit and Credit Scoring" links at http://www.creditsuit.org/

I'm trying to expand the listing of links - as soon as I got some spare time.

And another place with many links is the http://www.bayhouse.com/order-credit.shtml

But if you really want to learn something, find out what lowered your husband's score.

Who was the lender? Most lenders will O.K. it if your broker`s report was EXACTLY the same as the lenders except for the inquiry. You have to lean on the U/W supervisor. That is why they are called guidelines and not rules.

If you pull your credit in the middle of the month, and your most recent payments have not posted, this could affect your score.

No offence, but Ill bet you there is something on that report that is pulling that score down other than the inquiry. I have closed 35 loans where there was less than 5 points difference between the loan getting done and not getting done and I have never seen it change because of an inquiry by the lender. Credit scoring definitely has a snowball efffect. If a couple of cards are at 52% instead 49% and then you add a missing month in the number of months reviewed and poof, your down 20 pts.

If what you described is true the 693 score was low to begin with. This is what leads me to believe it is probably something else.
Hope this helps:)

BTW --You CAN learn something from a broker...

If I knew then what I know now, the loan probably would have happened. I just would have had the president of our company beat up the investor (figuratively speaking).

As far as the reports go............. they were EXACTLY the same. The only differences were that the revolving credit total went DOWN $900 on the report with the lower score (with the % of credit used going down slightly also), and the installment credit total went DOWN $800. Most of the revolving credit was paid off.......... and all of that was the same. The difference was in the 3 accounts that still had a balance, and 2 of them reported a lower balance on the new report.

The only difference other than that was that 1 inquiry. As I said, the only other 2 inquirees on Equifax for the 12-month period was 1 for APS (electricity turn on) and Compass Bank (to open a new checking account).

Don't worry, noone else has been able to explain why the score went down that much either.

On a side issue, as I do monitor my husbands credit.......... we paid off a $29K car loan after 25 months (of a 60 month loan). The credit score went up 1 point. The % of revolving credit available went from 82% to 74% last month (Xmas), and the score went down 25 points (yes there was 1 new account).......... but also the 1 paid off account.

There has never been 1 derogatory in this credit........... EVER.

Frankly, I'd just like to kill them all. j/k of course :D

Couldnt agree with you more!! The credit bureaus are the closest thing to a real life X-File conspiracy.

How old are the accounts? I`m sure you know this but it would help to get below 50% on the cards. When you said 82% then I knew why he was 693 not 750. They make a HUGE deal about this. Three credit cards over 80% are actually worse than a mortgage late!

I dont know if you know this so please don`t be insulted. Try to keep 5 trade lines, no more no less. Keep the old ones. If you have to close a card to get to the 5 close a new one. A sneaky trick is to open a new c/c, put just enough on it to get your high balance c/c`s below 50%. Then pay the crap out of it and just the minimum on the big one. You pay such a high price for being over 50% that the extra trade line hit will be overshadowed by drop in balance below 50%. Your score didnt drop that much when you paid off your car because according to them that is what you are "supposed" to do. How rude!!

Incedentally, there is a company in Vegas that will open up a 25,000 line of credit in your name. You have to pay a 1% fee for each moth it is open and you cant touch the money BUT it will give you something good on your report. And for brokers, its VERIFIALBE. Those borrowers who dont have enough assets in the bank can open one of these and get a VOD showing 25K in the bank in their name. Its totally legal but sneaky!! I love it! Lenders and Bureaus can kiss my *&#$!

Have a great day!

You have it mixed up.......... look at my post again. There was 82% AVAILABLE, now 74% AVAILABLE. This means the usage was only 18%, and is now 26%. Both are WAY below 50%. As a matter of fact, there are only 3 revolving accounts with any balance at all. The rest are all open with a zero balance. This is what I was saying........... usage went up 8%, from VERY low, to just low.......... and the score went down 25 points.

I believe the average time open is about 4 years. There have been 3 new accounts in the last year. 1 revolving, 1 installment (auto loan), and 1 open end installment (furniture) (is reporting as installment on Experian, but revolving on Equifax).

LOL on that "sneaky" account. For every tightening of credit requirements, there is usually a "creative" way around most of it.

Hi LightningGal

If you would send me an email, I might be able to help you with this. The chances are we won't know what changed because with a trimerged report, the software at the provider (not the CRA) merges the info from the three CRA's on each account together, so you can't see what was in each report. Nevertheless, occasionally we can figure it out.

Who is "we" and what do you do?

Hi LightningGal

If you would send me an email, I might be able to help you with this. The chances are we won't know what changed because with a trimerged report, the software at the provider (not the CRA) merges the info from the three CRA's on each account together, so you can't see what was in each report. Nevertheless, occasionally we can figure it out.

Yes, who is "we"? And, you're wrong, almost every real estate tri-merge pull I have seen has codings for TU, EXP, EFX right there in both inquiries and accounts.

Lastly, I cannot IMAGINE working with a loan officer who dosen't even KNOW about rescoring! JTFC, what do we pay you for? (or, perhaps, I should get my broker's lic and STFU :)